BPSA Commissioner does Reddit AMA
2 Aug
So, for any of our members and supporters that frequent redditors (see Reddit.com), I did an AMA, or Ask Me Anything a few days back. The idea behind an AMA is that you make yourself available to answer questions from the reddit social community that might have an interest in what you’re doing and want to know more. There were a number of really good questions and comments that I thought would be informative for our members and others who aren’t necessarily on reddit, or those that might have missed it. Here’s the link below to the AMA for your slow reading pleasure.
If you find anything you want to ask, go ahead and make a comment on that thread (you’ll need a reddit.com login to do so) and I’ll definitely answer it as quickly as possible. You can also comment here on this post as well. Thanks for the great turn out, it was enjoyable!
BPSA Commissioner AMA on /r/IAmA
The Baden-Powell Service Association (BPSA), US is in no way affiliated with the Boy Scouts of America, Girl Scouts of the USA or any other WOSM organization. We are an independent and traditional Scouting association and part of the 
Here’s my concern. In the past few days I’ve seen a veritable blizzard of efforts to promote BPSA-US predominately with respect to the different policies from BSA with regard to homosexuals and atheists. Fine. People of good will can and will take different opinions on these questions without having to ascribe malevolence to the other side. And since it’s been in the news lately, I can understand, from a marketing perspective, why BPSA-US would want to make hay of it while the sun shines, etc.
But. It seems to me that *the* Value-Added Proposition, the chief selling point of BPSA-US is “Traditional Scouting, the way it was intended”, NOT “Scouting: Gays and Atheists Welcome Here”. If you over-emphasize the latter, then you run the risk of it becoming the ONLY thing people will talk about, and then, suddenly, all the aspects of the Baden-Powell genius: the woodcraft, the patrol method, the whole idea of the Game of Scouting, will become secondary. And secondary to making political and ideological points, which Scouting is not supposed to be about. People (and there are many I think) who are looking for a woodcraft-focused alternative to BSA, or who want the same for their daughters, will take a look at BPSA-US and wonder what their emphasis really is. And maybe move on.
There is also the entrepreneurial adage that unless your product is at least 10x better than the established competition, don’t bother–the existing institutions have too much at stake and are too entrenched to allow the new player in. Now, the application here is that a parent who wants an alternative to the BSA policy will have established institutions to pick from. BPSA-US today has what, maybe a membership in the triple digits? It is not realistic to think that it will be able to match the *millions* in Camp Fire, in 4-H, in the Girl Scouts, etc. in our lifetime if it competes on the inclusion platform. But in Traditional Scouting it *can* argue that it has a niche product that can compete with the BSA.
I guess my question is, do you think the current emphasis should be the long-term strategy?
Colin, those are all very good, valid points.
For the past couple of years we’ve tried promoting the “Traditional Scouting” aspect of the program. This is our focus on the web site, and it is a strong selling point of the program. We’ve been focusing on the other aspects of the program, specifically policy recently, because of the draw toward programs that are open and inclusive given what people are currently reading about in the news and on their social networks.
Again, you are right, in that we do need to move toward a stronger emphasis on the actual program itself, which is the back-to-basics, traditional Scouting program as implemented by B.P. and prior to the 1960′s.
The trouble with that, at the moment, in the United States, is that most people aren’t familiar with any other “kind” of Scouting other than what they’ve seen, heard, read or experienced in the Boy Scouts of America. If you mention to a Scouter in the US that BPSA is a “traditional” style scouting program the usual response is, “So? How’s that different than what the BSA does?” Granted, some people will and do understand the differences; but for those that don’t, you have to explain quite a bit of information, including Scouting’s history since 1907, the original aims/methods of the Scouting program, the Patrol System (as different from the system used by BSA), the Advance Party Report in the UK in the 60′s and the movement toward modernization by the Boy Scout Association and the BSA between 1960 and 1971 when the programs changed, what is “woodcraft” and “scoutcraft”, etc.
It’s a lot to get across to promote a program in an era where most people, media and news organizations don’t have the time or want to take the time to read. So, with that being our past experience, the goal was to get the program out there and have people hit the web site or contact us for more information about the program. At that point, they can read about and hear about the benefits of a traditional scouting program and take the time to really understand the implications of what that means compared to what they might be familiar with here in the US.
I am open to suggestions on how best to “focus” that message of traditional scouting to the public and others; and will definitely talk to my volunteer staff about trying to emphasize that aspect of the program more frequently and work it into our message. You should join us on the FB page or in our BPSA Base Camp and start up a discussion with our other staff and members on this exact subject.
I have joined the FB page, and the Locator. The message of traditional scouting is one that resonates with me, and I will assist in long term strategies to communicate that to the larger world.
Two sort-of legal questions: First, what is the current legal understanding of the terminology that can be used? Given the congressional charter, I understand that BPSA members are not to be called “Scouts”, but is the *activity* engaged in free to be called “scouting”? I know it sounds like splitting hairs but BSA’s general counsel would likely disagree…
Second, is there any legal continuity between the current BPSA and the earlier “Baden-Powell Scouting Association” that looks to have started up in Texas circa 2002? All the links for that organization seem dead, and the logo chosen (a red fleur-de-lys) seems different from BPSA’s olive one.
Colin, the BPSA originally started out in 2006 as the Baden-Powell Scouting Association (as did the BPSA in Canada). We received a cease and desist letter from the BSA legal team shortly after telling us we could not use the word “Scout” or “Scouting” in our name, since the name constitutes a registered mark (incorporation, state & federal filing, etc.).
We complied and changed “Scouting” to “Service.” As far as using the words “Scout”, “Scouting” etc. in our literature and to refer to participants in the program we are perfectly fine as this does not constitute a trademark or infringement of the Federal Charter which protects the BSA’s ‘brand.’
I don’t expect any further complications; but should they arise, we’ll handle them.
The 1st Terrant Group in Texas that you refer to is defunct. The were not BSA (though they were initially before they converted over); but were actually granted a charter from the Baden-Powell Scouting Association in the UK to operate within their program remotely in the US. I don’t think they lasted long, and when I tried contacting them back in 2008, I had no response as well.
David, thank you for answering my questions, I do appreciate it. I have a couple more.
Since the issues of late have had largely to do with the marketing strategy for traditional scouting, is there anything to be learned from the apparently explosive growth in WFIS affiliates in Asia? From WFIS statistics online they’ve gone from nearly nothing to >100,000 in no time flat. Is there any break-out of that according to nation–it looks to be a mostly south Asian phenomenon. Is there anything from their experience that can be adapted here, and are those numbers genuine? What is the story there?
Second, is there any case to be made, in terms of supplies and logistics, economies of scale and so forth, about approaching the B-P Scouts of Canada about a merger, and creating a sort of “BPSA-North America”?
I too have been concerned with what seems to be our current emphasis. I for one am proud of earning the Eagle Scout Award in the BSA. I “earned” it, and try to proscribe by the commitment I made “On My Honor…” in the Scout Oath. I believe that the BSA has every right to determine who, and who should not, be a member…or a leader.I believe the same right exists for the BPSA-US.
I believe there is room for someone like me to see “the other point of view.” I believe I can be an active member in both organizations and support the values attributed by both. Some may say that is straddling the fence. Maybe so.
I do not believe that one must “win out”, or be better than the other. I do not believe either organization should take pot shots at the other. Just emphasize what we do. Our organizations are different…so are our memberships…so is each individual.
BP himself believed that a boy, to become his best, needed to believe in a higher being. I personally do not believe athiesm meets that requirement. That dosn’t mean I don’t think that a person who believes themselves to be an athiest is not a good person and cannot benefit from Scouting (“Traditional” or not).
We also cannot throw the first stone. I think we all agree we are not totally inclusive and non-discrimnatory. We do not allow pedophiles or many convicted felons from serving (and therefore do “discriminate”).
Let us understand and agree to disagree with our other Scout Brothers and Sisters. Lets support them wholeheartedly for staying the course and abiding to what they perceive to be their principles and their rights. Isn’t that what America stands for? Allowing me to believe and act based on my personal principles? Being tolerant does not mean that someone has to relent and share YOUR beliefs. It means YOU need to stand up for your rights…but allow others to do the same and support their right to do so.
I look forward to serving many years in Scouting (note I did not state which form – its dosn’t matter)and as BP said “being a friend to all.”
My support to all of you in your SCOUTING endeavors. Keep politics out of Scouting, and enjoy your time with your family, children, and friends,as you Rover in this short life in the open air of this beutiful world.
Yours in (Traditional) Scouting and Rovering,
M. Dan’l Adams
Eagle Scout BSA 1976
Deputy Chief Commissioner -Rover Scouts International
Asst. Area Commissioner- Western Region, BSA
Past Chief Rover and Commissioner BPSA-US
Life Member – BPSA-US
Past Chairman WFIS – North America
Dan’l, I’ll comment briefly, but I’d like to post my response to a question on reddit the other night when asked “How will we compete with the BSA?”, which I replied to as follows:
–
“We’re not really trying to compete with the BSA; and I don’t think we have any expectations to become a behemoth of a scouting organization. People join scouting for different reasons. If people want a more traditional, back-to-basics scouting experience and program, along with an inclusive membership policy and openness to everyone, they’ll come our way. If they want a more modern, broader scouting program and dont’ have issues with the BSA’s policies, they’ll go there.
The key is, unless we have organizations like BPSA and Navigators USA and others, people don’t have that choice or freedom of picking the program that best suites them. That’s how I see us: a choice, not a competitor.”
–
Again, we state this also on our “About” page,
–
“BPSA is totally independent of, and not affiliated with, either The Boy Scouts of America or the Girls Scouts of the USA. We are members of the World Federation of Independent Scouts and as such are not in competition with other American Scouting Associations, we are only their brothers.”
–
You are right, we are not in competition. And, as all Scouts should, we follow the principle behind the 4th point of the Scout Law, “A Scout is a friend to all, and a brother to every other Scout.” And, you are also correct, in that we are nearly two different kinds of programs in regards to the focus and what we do (there are similarities, as we are all Scouts descended from a common root, BP).
And Colin is correct in pointing out that, in the long-run, our focus should be on the program we offer, its benefits and positive aspects, its roots in BP’s original program and focus on woodcraft and public service as the drawing and staying power of the organization.
But too, as an organization that does have open and inclusive policies, and as an organization which does believe that every youth, whether atheist, gay or lesbian, female or otherwise, should be able to participate in our program of traditional scouting, we should be proud of that and not back away from it. As a part of the whole package of BPSA that parents and families and youth look at when deciding what youth group to participate in, that should be considered in the decision making process. For many, it might be the deciding factor. It depends on the family and individual.
We would always support any other Scout in need, and consider those in the BSA or any other Scouting organization fellow Scouts in the truest sense of the Scout Law; however, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be proud of our openness and acceptance.
We are an option and an alternative for people because of those policies – the issue moving forward is how to make sure we also emphasize the traditional program as what we do.
Couldn’t the whole question be re-framed, by specifying that there is no *national* policy, but instead devolve the decision down to the individual Scout Group? At the same time there could be a national mandate included in the by-laws saying that whatever policy a group chooses, it must accept as brother/sister scouts those members and leaders of other B-PSA Groups that might choose other policies. That might satisfy most people, particularly potential sponsoring organizations who are required to pick one or the other policy options (e.g. a volunteer fire department and a church, to take two opposite examples).
A decentralized, federalist model (plus a “full faith and credit” clause, to stretch the constitutional parallel) would probably be more conducive to the long-term growth of B-PSA in any event in our “Long Tail” economy, quite independent of the orientation/belief question.
BPSA, in order to maintain its mission of bringing traditional scouting to everyone, has set forth as one of its policies that Scout Groups chartered by the BPSA be open and inclusive.
As part of our mission, and stated in our By-Laws, each chartered Scout Group must follow this policy as it provides consistency in our message and our program.
For the BPSA to allow chartered organizations in one area to choose to be open and inclusive and those in another area to decide to restrict their membership based on some specific factor would not be positive for the organization as a whole or cohesive for the groups it supports.
BPSA does not have the expectation to meet everyone’s needs, or to grow to a size comparable to other youth organizations. We aim to offer a traditional scouting program based on B.P.’s original aims and methods (w/ minor changes for safety, health, environmental concerns and culture) that is available to “everyone”, youth and adult, in the US.
If this is not the type of program that an individual wants to offer or participate in, there are other Scouting and youth organizations that might be a better fit. And if it is Scouting they want to do, and our program isn’t a fit, we wish them luck and good Scouting in their endeavors, and would still consider them fellow Scouts in the wider Scouting movement.
Well said David.
I do not believe BPSA should back away from its values either. I would not advertise that we are “non-discrimatory”…that means others are..and in fact…we are.
I would suggest to the board that we adopt and publish a policy such as…
The BPSA-US is a traditional Scouting program open to all individuals without concern for ones sex, sexual orientation, religious, social, or political views.
Maybe leave out political…I’m sure we do not want to associate with a group sponsered by the KKK; American Nazi movement…you get my point…and again…that does makes us discriminatory
We must beware of partners and partnering organizations that have a grind to make and their own agenda.
You have done a wonderful job getting BPSA-US to where it is. My best to you in your continued efforts. Stay the course, and continue in Scouting and Rovering…
your friend, and Brother Scouter and Rover,
Dan’l